Review Board is expected to give Vincent Li more freedom

On Monday, doctors from the Selkirk Mental Health Centre told a Criminal Review Board Hearing that Vincent Li has made significant progress in his treatment. Indeed, the risk of Li re-offending according to his medical handlers is only about 1 per cent. Based on this new diagnosis, the Review Board was asked to give Li extended privileges within the facility. Previously, Lii has been allowed passes to walk on hospital grounds, provided he has direct supervision. Now doctors are suggesting Li is doing so well with the daily 60-to-90 minute walks that he should be allowed general supervision like any other patient at the hospital.

A second proposal that was made involves Li being permitted to take 30-minute excursions away from the hospital within Selkirk, provided he is accompanied at all times by a peace officer and a nurse. His doctors say those passes can be extended by up to 15 minutes per week, provided there are no incidents and he continues to make great strides.

Within the request to the Board, there is no indication that the community would be made aware of Li’s presence in their neighborhood. In fact, his doctors suggested the accompanying peace officers should be allowed to wear plain clothes to avoid drawing extra attention to Li.

Carol de Delley, Tim McLean’s mother, disagrees. She believes that Li is “a very unpredictably dangerous person.” Carol has given numerous media interviews in an attempt to heighten the awareness of the issues surrounding Vincent Li. While she is not concerned about security and surveillance while Li is in the care of the hospital, De Delley does question his activities outside of confinement. “What happens when he’s not in care anymore?”

The answer to this question has not been forthcoming. At the Hearing, the Crown did not raise any opposition to the proposals. Why would she? Li was described as having a “low risk of reoffending” and described as a “nice gentle guy”. Ironically, however, Li sat quietly through the Hearing in leg irons. On face value, it would appear that the members of the board only trust him in the Selkirk neighborhood.

Unfortunately, it is expected that Vincent Li will be given more freedom in the days to come. The Board is expected to render their decision shortly.

Signing the petition for Tim’s Law is showing support for a dialogue that weighs the rights of all sides of this discussion.

66 thoughts on “Review Board is expected to give Vincent Li more freedom”

  1. I don’t think that Vince Li should be able to move to Winnipeg. He committed a crime,he should do the time. My heart goes out to the McLean family. If it was anyone else committing this crime,we wouldn’t have the same rights or privileges Vince has had. Keep him in prison.

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  3. If there is 1% chance he could do it again, then he could do it again. he needs to remain locked up and additional privileges shouldn’t apply. Tim’s family has no such privilege as going for a walk with him again.

  4. I am so sorry for what you are going through, Carol. Keep up the good work in educating others as to the travesty of justice that can happen in terms of mental health and the laws that need to be revised. I can’t imagine what you’ve been through. You have done so in such a dignified manner and I applaud your tenacity and strength. The honour of your beloved son, Tim is worth every second of your work on behalf of the love you have for your boy.

  5. I know a drunk driver which got two years less a day for hitting and killing someone with their car. I think when he gets out maybe he should drink and drive in Vincents area. The less coherent someone is, the less jail time they get from the crime.
    Is the government telling i can committ a crime as long as i am not in the right state of mind, i can get away with it.
    What is the message they are sending???

    There should be no jails for any kind of murders, just graveyards.

    1. Simply Outrages. “Doctors” Go Eff yourselves, Seriously. They have no idea what they are talking about?? You can not “Cure” something like that no matter what…. Jesus. People like him do not even deserve to go to jail.

  6. The government can’t guarantee that mentally disordered people will take their meds. Therefore they can’t guarantee the safety of the public from these disorders, monitored or not. The only control to keep public safe from Vincent is to charge him with first degree murder now that he is deemed sane to wonder the public. If he is sane then charge him and imprison him for life with his meds. It will only promote more fake insanities and loop holes in the “system “. Maybe it had to be a politicians family member murder before justice is prevailed. Anyone who deemed this release of Vincent has no morals or values to protect. People go missing everyday….and Vincent Li is worthless. Why is he still out there? Who deemed his life more valuable than justice.?? Alot of people out there with a short fuse about the whole situation…..i am sure justice will prevail in one form or another.
    The board members who deemed Vincent fit for wondering should be the ones to accept him into their town and homes, and watch him walk around their neighborhood at night in the shadows like a demon monster it is.
    I seen people get lots of jail time for things that don’t even harm people and this delinquent Vincent does the worst to someone in public and no charges. Pathetic attempt from government. Disgrace of justice. No assurance answers to future incidents.

  7. cant wait til he cuts someones elses head off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    so you mother fuckin tree huggers
    will shut the fuck up

  8. I am ashamed once again in our Canadian justice system, and my thoughts go out to Tims friends and family. I think weather he has a mental disorder or not he should be locked up for good for such a henious crime, whether it be in a prison or a mental hospital where he can be monitored. My cousin a few years ago was also murdered with a hammer in his sleep, and sort of the same story, the person that commited the murder was found not criminally responsible, did a couple years in a hospital, then was found fit to re-join society. Something needs to be done here with our justice system, the offenders seems to have more rights then the victims and the vistims familys

    1. What about the role of technology in preventing this from ever happening again?

      Eventually Vincent Li will be let out free according to the NCR (Not Criminally Responsible) laws.
      When that happens, I propose that a tamper-proof 2-way video monitor be installed in each NCR patients home after being discharged from the psychiatric hospital. The NCR patient wakes up at a certain time each morning, gets their anti-psychotic medication out into a spoon with a glass of water, presses the button on the 1080p High Definition monitor, the nurse or doctor then visually witnesses the patient swallow their medications. The patient then opens their mouth wide/ lifts their tongue to verify the medications have been swallowed, then the patient sits down and reads/ or watches TV in full view of the video camera for another 20 minutes to allow the medications to be absorbed instead of being secretly vomited out by patient. Its a daily morning routine, plain and simple.

      This concrete daily process is one more step to ensure public safety. This 2-way video technology (ie. Skype, video conferencing software, etc…) also saves the taxpayers money instead of hiring extra professional nurses to drive around to ensure that patients are taking their medications when they are supposed to. The current mental health system is not doing enough to ensure public safety.
      My deepest condolences to Tim McLean’s family.
      -A Shocked and Concerned fellow Canadian.

      1. NCR when he ate body parts to intimidate police officers?? and you are off on strawmen about mandating telescreens and forcing people to watch their daily “programming”…..get rational and start looking for real solutions.

  9. I truly feel for the friends and the family of Tim.
    But please let me politely disagree and post a critical comment here because I see some people posting extremely ignorant and discriminating remarks directed towards the mentally ill and the admin of this site is not doing anything about it. (correct me if I’m mistaken…)

    I understand where you are coming from and I agree that from the public safety point of view, it is better to have this Vince Li guy locked up for life, but you simply cannot do that in a democratic country such as Canada. Yes there is always something wrong with the system, but you also must know that there is no such thing as perfect system… if you fix something something else goes wrong. that’s how it works.

    And I can’t stress enough that people really don’t realize what a horrible “disease” schizophrenia is and also the fact that it is “treatable.” A lot of you seem to have schizophrenia and psychopathy mixed up, not that I’m an expert on these mental conditions.

    Yes, he did commit that heinous crime but now that he is getting treated, he should not be considered the same person any more. I agree that he should be monitored for life, but I just can’t agree that he should be locked up for life just because “nobody can be sure.” If you start getting rid of people just because “nobody can be sure,” you have to get rid of a lot more people (not just schizophrenics) and it is simply intolerable in a democratic society.

    1. With all due respect how should a democratic society then handle people who commit such terrible henious acts? Whether it be the result of Schizophrenia, addictions, viscous cruelty in one’s personality or some other reason that is never fully understood, incidents are happening in Canada it seems more and more frequenlty which are terrifying. The Victims are the people who are brutally murdered.No one should be absolved of respsonsibilty for having done this. Why is it that the murderer can be viewed as a different person and have public sympathy, and the victim becomes forgotten? This is a terrible irony of a democratic society.

      1. see here it goes. Schizophrenia and addictions being talked about on the same level. Like I said, I understand where you are coming from and although I may sound a bit defensive, I truly do respect your opinions… but I also think that people like you need to learn more about this disease.

        The bottom-line is though I don’t think you can “PUNISH” schizophrenics. I also believe that not even allowing Li to leave his institution just for a couple of hours for his *treatment* is, PUNISHMENT. (setting him completely free on his own is a totally different story but i won’t talk about that)

        1. I did not see your reply until now. You say people like me need more education about the disease, well I assure you I have many years experience as well as degree in the field. I think you need to research incidents in Canada when people found NCR and were given passes and did reoffend with tragic results.
          That is why on Friday Prime Minister Harper announced the start of a new bill to protect the safety of the public and the victims. You view Vince Li as the victim here and yourself and many others do not acknowledge that Tim McLean and his family are the victims here. Also alcoholism has long been recognized as an illness and as such is is in th DSM.

      1. Everyone has equal chance to do right or wrong. Something like that cannot be dismissed. Ever, No mater what kind of “Treatment” you simply can’t guarantee he will never do it again. Sorry but he done fucked up. The only thing he should be given is a bullet in the head.

  10. It is a sad day we live in when you can’t walk the streets,fly in a plane or in this case, ride a bus.What a twisted,incompetent justice system we have in place where the criminal (guilty party)is afforded more rights and freedoms than than the victims of the offense or criminal act.Some things in life are unpredictable but mental illness has a definite “probable cause” or “caution” attached to it.I am well aware of mental illness and the total lack of competence by society to be pro active and take responsibility for the care and well being of both the person who suffers from the illness and the general public or the rest of society.Families and friends of loved ones who have desperately tried to get help for the one who suffers are also “victims” No help, no hope!
    This so-called “0” tolerance society has actually promoted these kinds of tragedies from unfolding.If every one has rights,then we lose individual rights and freedoms…you can’t have it both ways.Doctors aren’t responsible,judges and lawyers aren’t responsible,mental health society aren’t responsible….actually, the Canadian Mental health should be disbanded because they hide behind a banner of organization about nothing and keep a lot of people employed who do nothing! Until we as a society take responsibility for mental illness there will be more tragedies it is not when but where will the next murder take place?
    Since there are no, so- called experts or at least those who would be accountable it is this writers opinion that Mr.Li will at some time hear voices again and more than likely take another innocent life.
    I was always of the belief that freedoms and rights have responsibility attached to it.If a crime is committed then a person relinquishes those rights and freedoms and suffers or pays the consequences for his/her actions. These are the checks and balances that are suppose to be in place for all citizens……what a “pipe dream”

  11. i do not know either presons invovled in this heinous incident but it has effected me personally as i take greyhound on a regular basis. i once had no fear thinking i was in good hands and well thousands of people travel that way… now im so scared i hate people sitting beside me, infront of me, and behind me i have so much fear especially because i travel to portage la prairie all the time. i now know anything could happen to me on that bus and noones going to help me. i always thought being canadian meant we worked together and didnt have to fear when in large groups this has tought me TRUST NOONE! in public places where u know noone u truely know NOONE, noone will help if danage araises and anyone could cause that danger to araise. i hate being so fearful and the 13 hour bus ride i take monthly really has turned into hell. i stay awake for days at a time now as im to afraid to close my eyes even for a second.

    i belive this “person” if i must call him that since he does breath and eat i guess that makes him human… ill refer to him as “the monster”…. i believe this monster knew what he was doing, HE bought the ticket, HE got on the bus, HE was carry a dangerous weapon, HE placed himself beside the poor young man, and HE ended his life in such a way none of us could ever understand. to the comments above if TIM was ur son, brother, cousin, nephew, grandchild, or friend u would have total differnt point of view. to me he was a total strange whoes changed my life forever and this monster gets to go on breathing eating and living like he never did a dam thing wrong its awful such a sad world we live in…

    i hope the next person this happens to as i am 100% sure it will happen again maybe in 2,3,5,10years and dont try to kid urselves if hes done it once he will screw up again and he will hurt someone elses child and i truely hope the next family sues the justice system because i am sure they will have the country stand behind them and help in every way possible…

    my final thought… if this monster is found fit for society then should he not be found fit to stand trail and should the trail not go on now… then justice could run its course

  12. I totally disagree with your website. We can prevent these tragedies, or certainly this one was preventable. That would be the best outcome from this terrible thing.

    This man has and had a treatable mental illness, and if treated this horrible thing would never have happened. So looking at ways to assist people in getting treatment, even if treatment is forced by law, is a much much better way to honour the victim here. If we in society paid for adequate mental health services ( which we don’t) had more mental health care that involves outreach and at times community committal which is the international standard, these kind of tragedies CAN be prevented. All this petition does is wanting some kind of revenge….. does nothing to protect us?

    1. Couldn’t agree more, with your comments. My daugther has bi polar disorder. These people are just looking for revenge, in fact they dishonour their loved ones, they would kill babies that are born with disabilities.

      1. kate and perter
        you said the magic word “treatable” NOT CURABLE. if he decided to go off his meds whats to say that he wouldn’t do something like this again?? a cannibal needs to be in a facility FOR LIFE!
        you guys are disgusting! does knowing what happened to Tim and what his family must be dealing with not hit you with a wave of extreme sadness? how could you come on here and say things like that? what if it was your family member?

    2. WHO IS ARGUING THE FACT THAT IF HE HAD BEEN TREATED THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED?? I know that, thats the point.Of course there needs to be all the things you’ve mentioned. Untreated is NOT the same as undiagnosed. He is getting the treatment now and he needs to be kept where he will continue to get his treatment forever because he chose not to once before and that didn’t go so well. Hopefully this will change the course for how and when the mentally ill receive treatment and the hope is that they will get it PRIOR to committing an act such as this. That being said I am referring ONLY to those found NCR of murder because the issue of the offenders mental health is being addressed but the victim is forgotten, he had rights too you know.Like the right to assume a level of personal safety in a public place and li violated that right, regardless of what happens with Li now, my son will still be dead. If you don’t support this feel free to leave as this was meant for supporters

    3. If you think that this has anything to do with revenge you are deeply mistaken.Its about public safety.

    4. Kate, there are a number of NCR cases detailed on Tim’s Law where the evidence suggests that the level of care provided by the mental health profession to a perpetrator may have been inadequate prior to any crime being committed. An example is Etienne Beaulieu. I use the term “may have been” as I can not be aware of the complexities surrounding a individual’s illness. Many health professionals have voiced concerns over issues within their profession.

      As stated repeatedly, Vincent Li was in contact with mental health professionals in Ontario prior to murdering Tim. Certainly addressing numerous shortcoming in the system may advert many similar tragedies from occurring at all!

      There are also numerous recent cases where it is highly questionable whether a NCR defense should even have been a legal option. Crown prosecutor are tasked with ensuring that Justice is not only done but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seem to be done. The handling of cases such as Allan Dwayne Schoenborn certainly bring their calling into disrepute.

      So I respectfully concur that something is broke and need fixing. Tim’s Law is not seeking revenge. Nor can it prevent similar tragedies from ever occurring.

      As you pointed out, there are some serious shortfalls in the treatment of mental health illnesses in society. There are also some serious shortcomings in the handling of violent offenders found NCR that need addressed.

    5. I tend to agree with you except for the last couple of sentences. This person got murdered. I imagine there’s nothing wrong with seeking a little revenge.

      People have different opinions and feelings on everything and it is always good for any one to attempt to get their point across so that other people can hear (and you are always free to disagree)

    6. Vince Li did have the opportunity to have treatment and he refused it. He walked away and there was no follow up. To say that Tim McLean’s murder was preventable is very insensitive. While you have the right to freedom of speech, you should also bear in mind that this is about the murder of an innocent son, brother, uncle, nephew and friend.

    7. By Canadian law, you cannot force anyone to take treatments or take medication if they chose not to…It seems that to many people are trying to minimize what Mr. Li has done by adding mental issues to his title.When he’s release back into society, who’s going to monitor him. Will he be living next door to his victim’s family, so someone will really be monitoring, him. Also by Cdn. law you are innocent until proven guilty, which means, all people arrested are innocent.Nobody is accountable for their crimes..Just get a good doctor, or a good defense lawyer, and you’re off free..As a member of a family who lost too many to homicide, wanting these criminals locked up, is not revenge, it’s survival, and hope that nobody else has to go thru what the families of the victims have to go thru.

  13. Witchdoctors & Psychotherapists

    If a group of witch doctors declared that a fifth of North Americans needed their ¬services, who would pay attention? But a group of semi-witch doctors recently made the same contention. And some are taking their pronouncement (and the need for taxpayers to buy their services) very seriously.

    The occasion? A group of “mental health providers” got together and said that 21 % of those living in an unnamed town needed mental health services in the past year, and only a third of those potential patients got “treated” (Denver Post 10/19/03, 6E). This “problem” is not unique to this town, either. The American Psychological Association apparently ¬believes that “approximately 30 percent of the nation’s adults suffer from a ¬diagnosable mental health disorder” (Holloway, JD. “US mental health system needs less stigma, more consumer input,” Monitor on Psychology. 2003;34(8):20-21).

    What are the consequences of not getting treatment? “Suicides, lost productivity, and homelessness,” said the Denver Post editorial board.
    But the evidence for “mental health treatment” reducing suicides, increasing productivity, or decreasing homelessness is mighty thin.

    Carefully controlled studies of the beneficial effects of such treatment on suicide, productivity or homelessness (!) are either absent or have reached equivocal results. Yet the Post pulled all the sympathy levers with: “Children, the elderly, the poor, rural residents and racial and ethnic minorities, as well as gays, lesbians and transgender individuals, suffer the most” from the lack of contact with mental health practitioners.
    You have to wonder what is entailed by “suffering” of this sort. The Rocky Mountain News said that the authors of the study dismissed
    the argument that if two-thirds of the people who supposedly need treatment are getting along without it, maybe they don’t all need it, calling such logic “the unfortunate triumph of ‘common sense.’” We’d say it as the prudent triumph of common sense and everyday experience.

    Mental health professionals have an unfortunate tendency to define the demand for their services as nearly infinite. After the Columbine shootings, a team of trauma experts concluded that at least 21,653 people in and around the school were in need of therapy—or 10 times the total number of students and staff—and an incredible 359,041 were at moderate risk for counseling (10/1 2/03, 7E).

    Psychiatrist Nat Lehrman recently noted that:
    Science seeks to find norms, such as blood pressure, while religion focuses on ideals. In terms of human behavior, science supposedly examines what we do, while religion addresses what we should do. But when we come to psychiatry, we find that it is far less a science than a religion because it defines in fact how people should act.

    “Judaism,” said Lehrman, “says we choose between good and evil, but Freud said we cannot really do so because of our traumatic childhood experiences. He therefore sought explanation for current distress in those earlier experiences. This is a basic error.” Lehrman continued:
    Any ordinary behavioral imperfection, any deviation from the narrowest type of standard, can now be given a diagnostic label, with one or more drugs then often prescribed. Millions of restless children are being medicated—primarily with Ritalin, a close relative of amphetamine—because of so-called Attention Deficit/Hyperactive Disorders. Shyness is now called a disorder, with drugs to “treat” it. Erectile dysfunction is another. So is failure to achieve supreme orgasm each time one makes love.

    Psychiatry itself has been defined as the only business in North America where the customer is always wrong.

    Psychiatry was peculiar enough when it largely confined itself to the hospitalized. Its clients were odd, and so were its practitioners. But since the 1950s, when psychiatry decided to clothe itself in “mental health” garb, it has gotten more and more intrusive into everyday life. “Mental health” professionals tell us how to deal with interpersonal relations like marriage (though their rates of staying married are no better, and often worse, than other professionals), social problems such as how to treat homosexual practitioners (the American Psychological Association has formally “deplored” discrimination against “people who engage in or have engaged in homosexual activities”), and even international relations (numerous “mental health” associations have condemned the war in Iraq).

    The proportion of the populace that mental health professionals want to “serve” is growing and growing. We can soon expect the day when the “ill” will outnumber the “well.” Perhaps Western Civilization truly is “nuts.”

    Lawyer and psychologist, Jay Ziskin, is the author of a two volume text book Coping With Psychiatric and Psychological Testimony. In it he says “Psychiatry and Psychology consist of a conglomeration of invalid theories of human behavior—there is no adequate classification or diagnostic system for mental disorders. In fact, psychiatry has no agreed-upon definition of ‘mind’ and thus is unable to define its own subject area. Not surprisingly there is no agreement on ‘sanity’, ‘insanity’, ‘psychosis’, or ‘schizophrenia.’”

    Dr. Lawrence LeShan, past president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology said: “Psychotherapy may be known in the future as the greatest hoax of the twentieth century.”

    Sigmund Freud, an Austrian Jew, was the founder of psychoanalysis. He was an avowed atheist who considered himself as one of the most dangerous enemies of religion. Freud believed that “free sexual intercourse between young males and respectable girls was necessary or society was doomed to incurable neuroses.”

    A murderer is a murderer!! If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, IT’S A DUCK! Vince Li is a waste of taxpayer money-there is NO CURE for Vince. Capital punishment is the ORDER of SANITY in this and countless other ‘cases’ in Canada.

  14. I believe Li should be kept in a prison hosptial until he is better but then he should serve his time in prison like anyone else who commited this
    hanious crime. He knew what he was doing when he commited the crime. I
    feel sick to my stomach to think of what he did to that poor innocent
    young man and now his family has to suffer. I believe in an eye for an eye and he should never be let out into the public again as I really do believe he will commit again. Who are these doctors anyway to say he is better now and should be freed

    1. The ‘doctors’ if you can call them that are witchdoctors who know nothing.

      “Psychoanalysis is not a science (it is) perhaps more like witch doctoring.”—Nobelist Richard Feynman

      “The techniques used by Western psychiatrists are with few exceptions on exactly the same scientific plane as the techniques used by witch doctors. The term itself (mental illness) is nonsensical, a semantic mistake. The two words cannot go together… you can no more have a mental disease than you can have a purple ides or a wise space. The mind really cannot become diseased anymore than the intellect can become abscessed.” “Psychiatry has been willing to sanctify its values with holy water of medicine and offer them up as the true faith of Mental Health. It is a false Messiah.”—Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, Psychiatrist, National Institute of Mental Health

      Dr. Lawrence LeShan, past president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology said: “Psychotherapy may be known in the future as the greatest hoax of the twentieth century.”

  15. I’ll tell you who’s really “mentally ill” in Canada. THE GOVERNMENT, THE JUDICIARY, THE PSYCHIATRISTS, THE PSYCHOLOGISTS, THE ‘EDUCATED ELITE’…shall I go on?

    MENTAL ILLNESS IS A MYTH created by ‘the world’ to drug humanity into useless zombies so the government can gain total control.

    Science has not been able to find ‘mental disease’ in the brain. Psychiatrists and their BS admit that there is no test, and no cure for the mental disorders that they use to labeled people with. Vincient Li is the spawn of evil and from the LAW of TRUTH I know it’s a LIFE FOR A LIFE. That and only that is JUSTICE. Anything less is pure SEWAGE!

    ‘Psychiatrists’ admit that there is no such thing as mental illness and no scientific tests that can prove that there are chemical imbalances in the brain that cause any of the so called disorders that people are labeled with today. Medication is a cop out. That murder Vincent Li should be ‘put down’ with the rest of the unredeemable sewage in Canada. THAT’S TRUTH!

    1996 UPDATE:
    “…modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biologic cause of any single mental illness.” David Kaiser, M.D., Commentary: Against Biologic Psychiatry, December 1996 Psychiatric Times.
    …there are no external validating criteria for psychiatric diagnoses. There is neither a blood test nor specific anatomic lesions for any major psychiatric disorder.” From a letter dated December 4, 1998 by Loren R. Mosher, M.D., a psychiatrist, resigning from the American Psychiatric Association.

    1999 UPDATE:
    “…all 5 million to 6 million children on these drugs [for hyperactivity] are normal. The country’s been led to believe that all painful emotions are a mental illness and the leadership of the APA [American Psychiatric Association] knows very well that they are representing it as a disease when there is no scientific data to confirm any mental illness.” Neurologist Fred Baughman, quoted in Insight magazine, June 28, 1999, p. 13.
    …there is no evidence that these mental illnesses, such as ADHD, exist.” Psychiatrist Peter Breggin, quoted in Insight magazine, June 28, 1999, p. 13. ADHD is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

    2000 UPDATE:
    “In medicine, strict criteria exist for calling a condition a disease. In addition to a predictable cluster of symptoms, the cause of the symptoms or some understanding of their physiology must be established. …Psychiatry is unique among medical specialties in that… We do not yet have proof either of the cause or the physiology for any psychiatric diagnosis. In recent decades, we have had no shortage of alleged biochemical imbalances for psychiatric conditions. Diligent though these attempts have been, not one has been proven. Quite the contrary. In every instance where such an imbalance was thought to have been found, it was later proven false. … No claim of a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time, in spite of popular misinformation.” Joseph Glenmullen, M.D., clinical instructor in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, in his book Prozac Backlash (Simon & Schuster, New York, 2000), pages 192-193, page 196, and page 198.

    2001 UPDATE:
    “Remember that no biochemical, neurological, or genetic markers have been found for attention deficit disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, depression, schizophrenia, anxiety, compulsive alcohol and drug abuse, overeating, gambling, or any other so-called mental illness, disease, or disorder.” Bruce Levine, Ph.D. (psychologist), Commonsense Rebellion: Debunking Psychiatry, Confronting Society (Continuum, New York 2001), p. 277.

    1. This comment has been edited by the admin of Tim’s Law.. a reminder to keep it civil on both sides. I really dislike being a censor.


        1. This has nothing to do with religion why must all the bible thumpers force all of their brainwashed ideals into each and every forum discussion?

          And to the Admin…why is it that only my comment gets edited? Perhaps because you disagree with my views more than my cursing I imagine. Hypocrisy at its best people.

          1. Hi Christopher

            I never removed anything from the context of your comment. I simply redacted some of the more colorful language for more sensitive readers. I also added a reminder “For All” to keep it civil.

            Regarding my position, I encourage a discourse from all whether you agree or disagree with the premise behind Tim’s Law. Unless the conversation includes those affected by mental illness how could we expect to effect positive change!

            Mental illness touches us all in varying degrees.

            As well, there are many stories on Tim’s Law of families that sought help for a loved one, and appear to have been failed by those entrusted to help. Hopefully we have done enough to bring attention to these instances.

            As I’ve stated numerous times on Tim’s Law.. Vincent Li interacted with law enforcement and mental health professionals prior to Tim’s murder. Addressing/identifying/funding issues that may have lead to lapses, possibly may have prevented some of the killings that have taken place.

  16. I am so glad that none of you will be involved in any of the decisions made regarding Vince Li and his time in hospital because if it was Vince Li would be: BURNED ALIVE/SAWED IN HALF/ELECTROCUTED/SHOT/STABBED/RUN OVER/THROWN OFF A CLIFF/BEATEN TO DEATH/CRUCIFIED/BLOWN UP/HUNG

    ……have I missed any? Oh and btw these are just some of the suggestions posted by fellow Tim’s Law Petition Supporters.

    1. Tim’s Law must be stopped! What is with rednecked Canadians? I would have zero fear to be near Vince Li. He is no threat to anyone. You bunch of ignorant people. Why don’t you help society buy recognizing this woman/mother is doing HUGE damage and setting back mental illness 20 years with this publicity campaign…which is going to result in MUCH more damage to society than the tragic death of one person! or supposed “saving of others” if blocking release of these people back into society, get real read the stats compaired to release of “normal” person who commits a crime odds to reoffend….HUGE DIFFERENCE…WAKE UP, she is a grieving person…Do not support her campaign it is very hurtful to at least 300,000 schizophrenics who have to live under this media shit storm SHE started and it must stop.

      1. First off no one is trying to set mental health back 20 bloody years!!!! Vince did this crime when he was off his meds so they say… He knew what he was doing that night on the bus. It’s as simple as that. If he’s gettign better, good for him, but what about Tim or his family?? How can his family heal and move on when all they keep talking about is this stupid man getting walks on the yard and wanting ot go into the community… If he’s that better, then he should be getting a ride right straight to Stoney Mountain Insitution!!!!!! Not walks on the land with a doctor. The only reason he is improving is because these doctors are there to make sure he’s on all his meds and what not.. Whats going to happend if they start slacking on his supervision?? There is a low ‘chance’ of Vince recommiting a crime like this again, but in all retrospect, it can happened at any time if he goes of his meds again… He needs to be locked up in a JAIL!!! not a stupid hospital… Man the guy is probably just loving it because he basically got away with it… If he is getting so much better, then he needs to be transported to a jailed facility!!! The man did one of the worst murders in my time, and he needs to be held accountable… pretty soon everyone is going to be trying to use the mental illness way outta their crimes because they seen how easy it was for Vince Lee!!!! In times like these I wish that Canada had the system that thailand and them foreign counties have…AN EYE FOR AN EYE!!!! KEEP VINCE LEE LOCKED UP UNTIL THE DAY HE DIES!!!! HE TOOK A LIFE THE WAY HE DID, AND HIS SHOULD BE TAKEN AWAY FROM HIM!!!!!!!!!!! Glad I will never ever have to go to Selkirk!!!!! Thats all I got to say!!!!!!

      2. Christopher, Elizabeth you must be as bonkers as Vincent Li!!!! Tims law is not just for his grieving mother its for Tims justice and his family!!!!! Insane or not Vincent Li should rot in jail just like every other psycho out there!!!! He committed a horrific crime and does not deserve any sympathy or pats on the shoulder for “getting better”, he deserves what every other murder deserves!! Canadas justice system is redneck I might add, why can’t we have the death penalty!!! Because if he gets out he will do it again thinking its okay to kill innocent people then claim to be insane and get a slap on the wrist then released with the support of blind people!!!! How would you feel if he murdered someone you loved!! Your cold hearted and insensitive!!! Mental illness is very recognized these days, he should have been responsible and took his meds!!!! No matter what anyone says he was wrong!!!!!!!

      3. omg you are not for real, you are just THE DEVILs advocate freak, any violent offender should be locked up like michael myers or jason voorhyes mental illness is treated everyday with great success and im so happy for everyone but when it comes to the crazies that goes beyond pleading insanity

      4. nobody trying to pass Tim’s Law cares about other skitzos who do not murder and dismember other human beings Tim’s Law is meant for the ones that do. why are you even on here if you’re not here to support?

      5. I hope if you mean what you just said,that you will be the first one in line to monitor Vince Li, to make sure he takes his meds etc.Don’t know if there is a list setup for people to volunteer such services.Not all schizophraniacs, will do what Vince Li. did, so it’s unfair to label them with the same brush. If he’s so well, he should be well enough to stand trial & take some accountability for his crime.

  17. If a person comes into our country and commits a crime, such as this one, we should have a law that enforces their return to their country of origin and a ban be placed against them so that they can never return to our country again. We experienced a horrible crime and now we are forced to not only rehabilitate the person, but to live with the knowledge that he will be walking among us, never knowing when and if another episode will occur. Why should any citizen of our country have to carry that burden?

  18. This absolutely makes me sick and is sooo wrong on all levels. Li should be lock up, beaten to the last itch of his life then put in an electrical chair and shocked to death

    1. @ Karen Which part makes you sick? I’m confused because it appears your saying you’re enraged over this murder but then in the same paragraph embrace murder as punishment. (It’s called Hypocrisy.)Can’t have it both way.

  19. Because he cut off somebodies head!!! Lets not forget the crime commited. I don’t care if you are rehabilitated or not; there is no redemption for that crime!!

  20. The only normal people in this world are the ones you don’t know so well.

    How many people have skeletons hiding in their closet?

    Perhaps someone you know, or think you know.

    Mr. Li is choosing to go under treatment after he he has identified his untreated and unidentified mental illness – schizophrenia. A mental disorder which causes auditory hallucinations, paranoia, disorganized speech/behaviours, and delusions. I use the word “choose” as others who have written in this thread have indicated that “the mentally ill are notorious for spitting out their medication”, Mr. Li is willingly taking his medication.

    I believe there are many people amongst our communities who suffer or show signs of these behaviours. I am sure that many of you know people who fit into these categories or perhaps have silently hidden the truth. Should we disallow everyone from living in our communities? The people you should fear, are those who are living among us with the potential of an outbreak… an illness which perhaps have deteriorated without treatment.

    We should allow Mr. Li the courtesy of rehabilatating amongst us while under supervision, then decide. Guilt is a bigger preventitive than any medication or precaution out there, it provides the will power to prevent.

    The Greyhound incident is tragic, but there are more than one victim. Everyone on the bus who has lived and will live with the incident, the ones who can not rest.

    1. I actually don’t think we DO owe him the “courtesy ” of rehabilitating amongst us.He cannot be rehabilitated because he’s sick,and incurable. Managable with meds butwe cannot force medication,again that would violate his rights

  21. I worked in a hospital for the mentally ill for four years to put myself through university. All the patients were medicated, yet we were required to wear panic alarms to bring help from other wards if we were attacked by a patient. The medications seemed to work for awhile and then didn’t. They were continually monitored and adjusted for patients. The mentally ill are notorious for spitting out medication, hiding it, and just refusing to take it. They have to be pressured to continually take it or they won’t. That’s a fact! Who will continually watch Mr. Lee on daily basis if he is allowed out of the hospital and fully back in society? He should be locked in a hospital for the mentally ill for the rest of his life. He should never be allowed out in public. Ever. This is only common sense. He is a murderer and a danger to society. He needs to be held accountable.

    1. The mentally ill have to be pressured to continually take it or they won’t. That’s a fact!? Don’t know where you get you facts try doing a little research sometime on people suffering from mental illness and you’ll know that the B.S. that you’re trying to sell is nonsense. You’re simple fear mongering for this cause.

      Are you aware that as of 2012 1 in 3 people now suffers from some form of mental illness. To work in a mental health facility, you in fact need a university degree so I don’t believe you when you say you worked in one to put yourself through university. I smell more B.S.!

      1. you do not need a degree or schooling to work in a mental health facility thanks!!!! You need grade 12!!! so look in to where your getting your facts from!!! Also, if someone is going to school in the the mental health field they can apply for part time jobs around the field they are going into and it can also count as credit hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2. I agree with you Andrea chances are that he would reoffend regardless, and if he is getting better then the next stop should not be in a mental health facility but rather JAIL for good society needs to be protected from people like him.
      Thank god I dont live in Winnipeg anymore Selkirk even more scary thanks but no thanks.
      To the McLean family so sorry for your loss and terrible crime that was committed to Tim.
      May god bless you and your family

  22. This is absolutely pathetic and shows how lousy our justice system truly is. They have decided to allow a CANNIBAL to walk the streets. This is an outrage. I am embarrassed to say that I am a Canadian Citizen. Only in Canada would they allow such a disgusting individual to be free. Vince Li IS criminally responsible whether the law likes to believe it or not. It was HIS hands that stabbed Tim, HIS mouth that did the chewing, and HIS body that did whatever other unspeakable things to this innocent man. LOCK HIM UP FOR GOOD… he doesn’t even deserve that much. Deport him. He shouldn’t be our problem.

  23. There is a home full of mentally ill people down the street from where I live and these people urinate on buildings, yell and scream at people one attacked me with a knife after my dog barked at them! This man Vincent Li should not be allowed out not even for walks! I understand he has a mental illness and although the mentally ill are supposed to be supervised monitored and medicated it just doesn’t happen! The system fails time and time again and letting him out would be a huge failure that would put everyone at risk! If he is doing well where he is then please just keep him there and allow society some sense of security!

  24. I am not surprised about this situation of day release for this monster. A parolled murderer in the USA murdered another person this week. These people can put on an academy performance by acting they are insane. If I could act like I’m insane to save myself from being in jail and most likely killed I would put on the best show I could. I have no hope for this animal he committed an act that deserves the death penalty.

  25. K0C 2K0
    Winchester Ontario

    Mr Li is nothing but the medical community poster boy for rehabilitation for committing such an abhorrent and heinous crime, as someone with a mental illness as someone they can treat and send back into the community with success.

    There is currently a big trend, a big push in society to have compassion for mental illness, to understand it, to lose the judgments we make and bring us out of the “dark ages” and mainstream the people with it. Which I am all for. However….

    The trouble is, crime with mental illness does not work. The public outcry outweighs any benefit to the mental illness afflicted community. The two don’t mix. This crime in particular offends the senses so, he should be locked up in a medical facility for life, not out on 30 min passes to Selkirk. This is critical and vital to the public safety.

    There is also trouble with anti-psychotic medications which schizophrenics take, the brain develops an immunity to the drugs and the doses need constant tweaking. Lack of monitoring and these people have a high risk of suicide and going off their meds.

    Mr Li’s case is severe. Not all schizophrenics are this sick. But they are definitely not curable. He is not to be trusted ever again. He crossed that threshold of listening and hearing, to acting upon with violence. These people are in torment, true, once that line is crossed…..he can’t go back.

    Mr Li will be a handful to treat, monitor, and escort. Freedom is a precious gift. Mr Li’s freedom is limited and it will disappear. Read this and remember it, his freedom is fleeting. He will screw up, the voices made him do it once, they will speak again. It is just a matter of time. 🙂

    I feel for the Mcleans, I hope they achieve all they are working for and more. Mr Li is going to hell. May God have mercy on his soul.

    1. for the record “the McLean’s” have done nothing in the pursuit of Tim’s Law .My name is Carol de Delley and I am Timothy’s mother,just sayin

  26. Lindsay White
    It must be a nightmare to suffer such a mental illness, but Tim Mclean and his family suffered a nightmare that others could suffer gain while there is still that risk. When even his doctor’s admit there is a risk, and there is a history of murder, that risk MUST CONTINUE to be compassionately managed with treatment, hospitalization and supervision, and not on the streets of our communities. This man who killed someone horrifically only 4 year ago will be sitting beside the general public in Selkirk within days. Is the nurse accompanying him in the community going to be able to stop him if he has another psychotic episode? What happens when he is finally out (as he will be slowly reintorduced to society and eventually released) unsupervised and with no one controlling whether he decides to take his meds or not? Managing the risk compassionaltely does not have to include lack of protection for public safety

  27. He is criminally responsible for deciding to stop taking his medication. If I chose to drive drunk and killed someone without deciding too, I would be criminally responsible for choosing to drive drunk. How is this any different. He made a decision when he was well to take risks. Right now his mediation is regulated by others beyond his control. What happens when he is out on the streets eventually without supervision and eventually released because he is stable. He should never be allowed to control the decisions about his medications ever again on his own. He took the life just a few short years ago, and hust as any mentally ill person is allowed to be released as long as they are stable. What about the child who no longer can’t even take a 30min walk each day like Li is doing now because that child is dead, dying a horrible unspeakable death additionally. That man could be walking beside you on the street, sitting beside you on a city bus soon, or even be the neighbour talking to your children across the fence each evening while they are outside playing alone, just like so many others the mental institutions put on the street each year with no follow up due to lack of funding. I am outraged and the grief I feel for this family to already have to deal with this so soon after their loss disgusts me and is so tragic that I can’t even believe that this could happen. Yet, it happens all the time. Something has to change. Speak up people!

    1. One of the problems is our Judicial System, government,it’s against human rights to force someone to take their medications.Criminals have rights, not the victims, they’re all but forgotten…It’s a justice system for the murderers, a revolving door keeping lawyers, judges, doctors, in business.I don’t want to wish ill on anyone, but the next time, someone is NCR, out on bail, out on the promise to appear, on parole, & reoffend,I hope they select their victims, very carefully, if you get what I’m saying..

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